Pools Update

As 2008 draws to a close, swimming in Forest Hill faces an uncertain future. The listing of Louise House has invalidated much of the preliminary work done by the council because this was all based on the assumption that Louise House would be demolished. At the meeting of the Lewisham Mayor and Cabinet on 17th Sept a new feasibility study was proposed and this will be presented to the Mayor and Cabinet in January/February 2009.

It has proved difficult to get new information from the Council about the proposed feasibility study and other aspects of the Pools' development. The Forest Hill Society has put together proposals for what we believe to be a better consultation process, involving the community at an earlier stage in producing the design brief. We have shared this with the Sydenham Society and Save the Face of Forest Hill.

A local architect has done some drawings which demonstrate the feasibility of locating two pools on the site, whilst retaining the facades of the current Pools building and Louise House as one credible option for the future of the site. Together with our shared vision of a design competition to produce quality alternative proposals for the site, we feel that we have much to contribute and the three groups are jointly seeking an urgent meeting with the council to progress this issue.

Meanwhile, the Council officers have arranged opportunities for stakeholders to visit Louise House to see the current state of the buildings. The English Heritage report says the internal layout is broadly original, dating from the time it was used as a Girls’ Industrial School. It suggests the bigger room on the upper floor would have been the girls’ dormitory. The girls would have been monitored from an adjacent room with windows looking into the dormitory! The laundry block at the back is a long, low building, mainly comprising one large room, until recently used as a nursery.

Happy 2009

2008 has been a mixed year for Forest Hill with two key issues dominating the work of the Forest Hill Society. Below is a brief summary of some of the key events for the Forest Hill Society since last new year.

Pools

The main issue for people in Forest Hill has been the closure of the Pools on Dartmouth Road and the effect this has had on the town centre.

In February Lewisham council published their recommendations on the pools, and the mayor accepted the recommendation to demolish both the pools building and Louise House to build a new leisure facility including two pools, as well as housing on the site.

Council Officers developed plans in conjunction with a firm of architects and presented their plans first to the General Meeting of the Forest Hill Society at the newly reopened Forest Hill School.

At the request of the Forest Hill Society and other stakeholders, a consultation took place in July and August to get views on the three options available. The Forest Hill Society submitted a detailed response before finding out that Louise House had been listed by English Heritage. This left us with no workable options from the council and back to square one.

In September the Mayor decided that a feasibility study should take place to decide the best way forward which would report in early 2009. This has meant that in 2008 no real progress has been made to bring swimming back to Forest Hill and as well as having two large empty buildings on the high street, the absence of the pool has led to the closure of other businesses, most notably Provender, which packed up and moved to Blackheath Village after more than 30 years in Forest Hill.

We hope that 2009 will bring some new plans that will bring swimming back to Forest Hill at the earliest possible opportunity.

Trains

On a more positive note 2008 has been a year of good news on the railways. In April the Route Utilisation Strategy was published by Network Rail, taking account of many of the concerns of the Forest Hill Society.

In March we found out about Southern Railways’ plans to shut the Perry Vale exit at Forest Hill Station in what became known as Oystergate. Prompted by TfL, Southern decided to shut the gate earlier than had been expected, from the beginning of July. This prompted motions in cabinet meetings and our MP, Jim Dowd raised the issue in Parliament, and a meeting between the Mayor Bullock, Jim Dowd, and rail representatives resulted in the reopening of the gates before the end of the month.

Today the gate is closed, but only temporarily, while work is done to install ticket barriers at the foot of the steps. One the gate reopens it will be open during all times that trains are running, thanks to further pressure from the Forest Hill Society and local councillors.

Berkeley Homes

During 2008 work took place close to the station on the building of Forest Hill Central on the former site of Finches removals.

In June Berkeley Homes applied to change a number of the units from 2 bedroom flats to extra 1 bedroom flats, having failed to sell any of the £400,000 2 bedroom flats on the open market. This application was opposed by the Forest Hill Society and rejected by the planning committee. As a result Berkeley Homes stopped all development work on the site and launched an appeal against the decision which they won in December. We are told that work will now recommence on the site.

Tyson Road

Another large development on Tyson Road had been refused in 2007 and although the developer appealed against the decision, they decided to withdraw that appeal in January. Not unexpectedly a new application was submitted in November which saw the number of units reduced from 84 to 76, with many aspects of the development the same as the previous development. The Forest Hill Society objected to this application, along with 260 other objectors and more who signed petitions. We hope that the council will reject this development early this year.

Forest Hill Society Events

In January 120 people attended the History Talk by Steve Grindley, which can be viewed here.

In May we had two nature walks, first in Garthorne Road Nature Reserve and then on the Green Chain Walk around Forest Hill.

In June we set up the 23 Club, which introduces members to a different local restaurant every month. With so many good restaurants in SE23 we will be busy for many months to come!

In October Peter Irby was elected Chairman of the Forest Hill Society at our AGM.

Other Activities

Local residents worked hard to open a new community garden on Stanstead Road. Devonshire Road Nature Reserve received a Green Pennant. A new action group was set up to improve Honor Oak Park.

2009

Looking forward to 2009 there are some exciting developments in the pipeline. McDonalds site on London Road may be turned into a gym, the Berkeley Homes development should be completed, bringing new people to live in the town centre, and the ticket barriers on Perry Vale will be installed and the exit reopened.

More importantly we will find out what the council intend to do about swimming in Forest Hill and we hope to see new plans developed that provide two pools and additional leisure facilities on the site of the pool. It would be a disaster for the area if by the end of 2009 we do not have a clear strategy for the building of the new leisure facilities.

The Forest Hill Society is looking at other ways to improve the area and ways of attracting new businesses to the town centres in Forest Hill and Honor Oak. Despite the economic gloom, 2009 could be a good year for Forest Hill, and in our final year without tube services let’s hope that new businesses spot the opportunity for investing in an area of London that has huge potential for the near future.

Best wishes to you all for a Happy New Year.

Mayor and Cabinet - next steps on Swimming Pools

The mayor considered the pools issue this evening and once again reaffirmed his commitment to swimming in Forest Hill.

STFOFH (Save the Face of Forest Hill), the Forest Hill Society, and the Forest Hill Ward councillors all recommended to the mayor that a design competition is held. The mayor said he liked the idea and would not rule out the possibility, once we have the next feasibility study. He was concerned that it could add significantly to the timescale for developing the pool and he would need compare this with the timescale for appointing an architect through other means (European Tenders process).

The mayor was confident that English Heritage would not list the pools building following two rejections of the listing. Some people from STFOFH suggested to me that they would not seek to do this (however, it only takes one person to apply for listing). The mayor did indicate that the officers are making sure English Heritage is aware of their plans for the site. Both local councillors and I had suggested that the council apply for immunity from listing for the pools, to make sure that the 'sheds' at the back do not get listed and that the council can properly consider redevelopment that includes just the frontage or total demolition. However, this is apparently not possible until the planning application stage - which is still a long way off.

The mayor did clearly rule out refurbishment as too much of a risk even if it were technically possible - which is apparently doubtful.

There was no commitment to extra funding but a reassurance that the £7.5m allocated to the project would be safe.

Councillor Chris Best emphasised the need for a quality facility fit for the 21st Century with proper provision of accessibility requirements. She suggested that the changing facilities were 'not fit for purpose'.

Conclusion:
The mayor accepted the report from the officers. Suggested that the feasibility study should be completed by January / February 2009 (a clarification sought by the Forest Hill Society regarding 'early 2009'). He asked that between now and then that officers keep the stakeholders group informed of the situation and progress.

It will be interesting to see what the conclusions of the feasibility study will be, what can be done with Louise House, what the future holds for the frontage of the pools, if there could be a design competition, and how much it will all cost.

Back to Square One

On the 20th August 2008, it was announced that Louise House, part of the Forest Hill Pools site, had been listed Grade II by English Heritage following a request for listing from an individual living in the local area. This means that the recent feasibility options for the new pools will need to be rethought and the process begun again. This was completely fresh news at the Public Meeting held at The Methodist Church , Normanton Street, on the 21st August and attended by over 200 Forest Hill residents.

Louise House has been listed mainly because of its historical importance (as a Victorian Girls Industrial Home that took in girls suffering extreme poverty and trained them for work in Domestic Service) and the unaltered condition of the building. A number of these buildings were built in London but this is a rare surviving example. The listing also notes the importance of the building as a 'group' with the Library and the Pools Building, even though the Pools building itself has previously been considered and turned down for listing.

The problem (or opportunity) this causes is that Louise House was included as part of the site for the New Pools/leisure complex recently consulted on by Lewisham Council. It means that the options that were on the table are no longer achievable in their current form and additional work will be needed to find out what it is possible to deliver on the site.

When the Mayor announced in March that he was abandoning the original plan to refurbish the pools (intrusive surveys and discussions with potential developers persuaded him this was not feasible), he set a short timescale for delivering the pools (to be open by 2011) and this led to the 'rushed' production of feasibility options for the site and a public consultation during August, when unfortunately many people are away on holiday.

The options presented to residents were 3 versions of the same scheme, with more or less housing, leisure uses and open space on the site. The preliminary results from the consultation were presented to a stakeholder meeting on the 27th August. The Council received around 600 replies to the consultation and views were fairly evenly split between the 3 options with about 10% of respondents choosing not to select any of the options. The FHS submitted a response (the highlights of which are included in this Newsletter) raising a number of concerns about the proposals but mostly supporting the need for a new pool facility in Forest Hill in the foreseeable future and seeking to ensure a high quality building is developed – possibly secured through a design competition.

The public meeting on the 21st August was very lively and heard a wide range of views. It clearly demonstrated that the area does seem to be split on whether to try to keep parts of the existing Pools Building in the scheme or not. The main area of consensus seemed to be that we do want a new pool, that the consultation process had not been very good and that the 3 versions of the scheme proposed left a lot to be desired. The Listing of Louise House has helpfully given the Council a get-out from its previous 'options' and it was acknowledged that there is the opportunity for a significant rethink.

Meanwhile, the Stakeholder Group continues to meet.

It includes representatives from both the Forest Hill and Sydenham Societies, residents groups, swimming organisations and local schools. To clarify, the stakeholder group does not in any way set the agenda.

Rather it is a forum for the council to present its plans and the group to make comments and seek information. However, it does mean that the Forest Hill Society gets the chance to have an input into the process as things move forward.

The Forest Hill Society members of the Stakeholder group are Hilary Satchwell and Penelope Jarrett. Both are keen swimmers as well as enthusiastic residents of Forest Hill and Hilary has particular experience of architecture and planning issues.

One of the key issues now will be testing whether it is still possible to achieve the range of leisure/residential options on the site and what the new use should be for Louise House. If any members of the Society have any positive ideas for new uses for Louise House that may be able to attract funding and allow a small element of public access, we would be pleased to hear from you so we can feed these ideas into the process.

The next step will be a meeting of Mayor and Cabinet on the 17th September 2008 when the Mayor will make recommendations for how the project should continue.

If you have any particular comments on what you think should happen at the Pools please let Hilary or Penelope know (hilary@foresthillsociety.com or Penelope@foresthillsociety.com).

Mayor and Cabinet - 17 September 2008 - Forest Hill Pools

The cabinet papers about Forest Hill Pool are now available:

• Item 11 Forest Hill Pools
  Paper on the initial design and feasibility work undertaken with respect to the redevelopment of Forest Hill Pools detailed in part 5 of this report; to inform the Mayor of the results of the community engagement and consultation detailed in part 6 of this report; to inform the Mayor of the listing of Louise House and its implications detailed in part 7 of this report; and to seek the Mayor’s approval to proceed with the proposed approach set out in part 8 of this report.
  
  
• Item 11 Forest Hill Pools Appendix A
  Community engagement and consultation
  
  
• Item 11 Forest Hill Pools Appendix B
  Amenity space affected
  
  
• Item 11 Forest Hill Pools Appendix C
  This Appendix includes the full written responses to the consultation from the Forest Hill Wart Councillors, the Forest Hill Society, and the Sydenham Society.

Hat tip: Andrew Brown

Louise House Listed

News reached us on 20th August that English Heritage, who have twice previously refused to list Forest Hill Pools, have decided to list Louise House including many of the internal features. What the future now holds for Louise House is uncertain as is the future of swimming in Forest Hill.

The three options presented by the council for the redevelopment of the pools are no longer possible and alternatives will need to be found.

For The Forest Hill Society our main concern now, as it has always been, is the future of swimming on this site. We call on the council to come up with innovative solutions to allow for a leisure centre on this site with two pools and community facilities. At present this looks like an onerous task, but the council need to find a way to make this possible within the new constraints. What must not be allowed to happen is for this decision to mark an end to swimming in Forest Hill.

The following day, on the 21st August, there was a public meeting to discuss the options for development of the site. 200 people attended the meeting where a range of views were expressed. Notes on the outcome of the meeting is available on Lewisham Council website.

At the Stakeholder Meeting on 27th August we found out some early results of the consultation. Although none of the options are possible following the listing of Louise House the results are still worth looking at. Of the 691 responses received:
Option 1 was preferred by 27% of respondents
Option 2 was preferred by 33% of respondents
Option 3 was preferred by 29% of respondents
11% expressed no preference.

The mayor and cabinet will meeting on 17th September and will be discussing the outcome of the consultation and development options.

Forest Hill Society response to the Forest Hill Pools Consultation

Below is the full text of the submission from the Forest Hill Society on the pools consultation. We understand that this may not fully represent the views of every single member of the Forest Hill Society or of the wider community but it is the considered opinions of a number of residents who have been involved in understanding the council's plans, and with experience as architects, developers of conservation schemes, health professionals, active swimmers, and parents, and we have listened to many views from local residents to make sure that we do represent a significant section of local residents.

The Forest Hill Society welcomes London Borough of Lewisham’s commitment to swimming in Forest Hill, and the promise of “no demolition without consultation”. Whilst we welcome the three options presented as part of the consultation, we have some reservations about the options offered and consultation process so far.

Facilities

As the Forest Hill Society we believe that an improved leisure facility on the site of the pools and Louise House is vital to the continued success of Forest Hill as a town centre. These facilities will attract people to the area and they will use other local facilities such as the shops and library at the same time.

We have collated feedback from local residents and have already passed on some of the best ideas to the council through the stakeholders’ meetings.

The most important requirements are:

1. The need for two pools – a main pool and a learner pool.
2. We think that a strong connection between the library and the leisure centre is really important and envisage an overlap of courses between the two buildings enhancing the offering from both.

Other considerations:

3. The learner pool could have a moveable floor to make it suitable for children of different ages and for hydrotherapy. According to the architects present at the station display this would not add significantly to the overall cost of the project (the figure of £100,000 was quoted).
4. The community area should include a regular shaped space for use as a large meeting hall (for up to 150 people), but more often can be divided into 2 or 3 rooms which can be used for education or for sport or community groups.
5. Innovative sporting facilities would help make the facility popular and well used e.g. a climbing wall and possibly boulders for non-supervised climbing outside the leisure centre.
6. We think that a strong connection between the library and the leisure centre is really important and envisage an overlap of courses between the two buildings enhancing the offering from both.
7. More retail units are not required when there are already many unoccupied retail units in the centre of Forest Hill.
8. A cafe is a good idea and should overlook the pool, with easy access for parents to move between the cafe and the changing area to assist their children.
9. Parking needs careful consideration, especially if there is to be additional housing on the site. We would not want to see a CPZ imposed on Derby Hill, Thorpewood Avenue, and Derby Hill Crescent, but there would need to be controls over car use for any residents of the properties on the site. With recent developments in Forest Hill there does not seem to be a way to implement car-free developments without the imposition of CPZ on all local streets. Lewisham council needs to look at other ways to ensure car-free developments for the life of these properties.

Design & Layout

We have been disappointed with the three designs presented which are fundamentally the same building with different levels of housing. Of particular concern were the following aspects of the design:

1. The entrance of the leisure centre in all options is on the north side of the development making the public area and entrance north facing with little direct sunlight, but more importantly it is at the furthest point from the library, ‘turning it’s back to the library’ as some have put it.
2. The link between the leisure centre and library looks like an afterthought rather than properly connecting the main part of the leisure complex to the library, although if a link at the library floor level could be made to work this could be very successful.
3. We would prefer a building that is designed in sympathy with the library with a coherent frontage rather than showing disregard for a fine grade 2 listed building. The design of the centre needs to be improved to compliment the library rather than as a blank modern building to ‘avoid diverting attention from the library’ – something that option 3 certainly fails to do. The Horniman Museum extension is an excellent local example of how a modern building can be integrated into an existed listed building in a coherent way.
4. We understand that there is a target of between 35% and 50% social housing on the site. Given that any profits from developing houses on the site will go directly into a community facility we believe that social housing should be minimised. That is not to say that there should be no social housing, but that a maximum of 20% would be more appropriate to allow for the best possible leisure development on the site. We are aware that Lewisham Council wish to see 35% social housing in developments of this size, but given the community benefit of profits going directly into the leisure centre it would make sense to adjust this target in this specific case.

Problems with specific options:

1. In Option 3 the seven story development is out of character with the streetscape of Dartmouth Road.
2. The high rise (7 storey) housing is too close to the road, built over the pavement and completely out of proportion to the other side of Dartmouth Road. This results in a strong physical separation between the part of Forest Hill with the pool to the north and the part of Forest Hill with the library to the south.
3. The isolated unit in option 2 for retail and possibly for housing does not fit well with the overall layout of the area and breaks up the public space
4. We are not happy with the scale or location of the housing along the frontage of option 3 and think that this needs serious reconsideration with alternative arrangements and locations explored e.g. along the back of pools building or around the square. There is plenty of room for extra housing to be built above the changing area and car park to the rear of the leisure centre. There are already large trees to the rear of the houses on Derby Hill Crescent that would prevent overlooking from this position. Access could be from the rear of the public space (possibly the same access as the flats aligned with Kingswear House). This is just one solution and we are sure that there are others that could be explored but have not been as part of this consultation.
5. Further housing may be possible above the garages to the rear of the site on Torcross Drive. By redeveloping these garages to providing some residential areas above the garage facilities, less residential development would be needed at the front of the site.
6. The loss on the pocket park is not a significant loss to Forest Hill with Baxter’s Field not far from the site and the new public space created on this site.

We hope that prior to awarding the contract for building the leisure centre other design options are considered, ideally opening up the process to a design competition. We understand that these designs were put together primarily to give an idea of bulk and massing and residential unit numbers, but they fail to show how different layouts for the site have been tested. We could easily be stuck with a sub-standard design for decades to come if the process now proceeds too quickly and without careful thought and proper consideration of what is possible, including allowing the architects selected through the OJEU process the opportunity to bring their creative design skills to the project.

Options and Bulk

From the three options presented by the council we believe that option 1 is not right as it does not include a learner pool. Options 2 and 3 both provide a better facility and although we are keen to maximise the leisure and community facilities available on this site, we do not believe that the housing set out in option 3 is the best way to achieve this.

Consultation Process

We have been disappointed with the consultation process for a number of reasons and we do not believe the council have engaged properly with the local community in regard to this development. This beginning sets a bad precedent as we move forward to the implementation phase.

Amongst our concerns are:

1. Lack of different designs available for public consultation.
2. The consultation has been open to people from across the borough, starting off in Catford, rather than focusing on the residents of Forest Hill.
3. Leaflets that were delivered to local residents were delivered too close to the beginning of the consultation and were simple white A4 sheets. In the 2005/2006 consultation the consultation document itself was delivered to every house, this should have been done again to get maximum feedback. Instead residents have to go to the library to pick up a leaflet or have access to the Internet for the online consultation.
4. The display in the library and the presentation of the three options in the consultation document significantly simplified the options and did not provide the full details that were in the full documentation that was available on the website. Copies of the full consultation document and historical report should have been available in the library to allow visitors to see the full context of the consultation.
5. Despite a feasibility study being undertaken to determine if Louise House and the Superintendent’s House could be saved and incorporated into a new development, no designs have been produced to show if a leisure centre could have been fitted in with this development. Many local residents naturally feel angry that this was not presented as an option after the feasibility study was undertaken and concluded that these building could be converted into housing for a small profit.
6. The consultation process took place during school holidays, when many children and parents are away. This will affect the results of the consultation and exclude many of the key users of the pools.
7. A public meeting should have been organised where local residents could have an opportunity to discuss the plans with the council officers and hear the views of other local residents.
8. There has been a lack of clarity for local residents regarding what the consultation is about – housing and leisure facilities or design of buildings and layout. By confusing these two issues it is difficult for the public to know how to respond.
9. We would like to see all the responses to the consultation to get a better idea of the views of local residents before the report goes to mayor and cabinet, so that we can satisfy ourselves that council officers accurately represent the views of local people from this consultation.

Pools Public Meeting - 21st August

Information from Councillor Chris Best:

Public Meeting 7pm Thursday 21 August at the Forest Hill Methodist Church and Centre on Normanton Rd SE23

As a recap - in February 2008 the Mayor of Lewisham approved the redevelopment of the Forest Hill Pools and Louise House site in order to bring new leisure facilities to the area. The Stakeholder Group (an inclusive Group of the key stakeholders including representatives from the Sydenham and Forest Hill Societies, swimmers, schools, residents and traders) held their first meeting in May. At the June meeting the group considered how we can redevelop the space next to Forest Hill's Grade II listed library and considered the feasibility and housing options from the consultants, HLM. The Council is currently consulting local residents on the three concepts that have been produced for the development of a new leisure centre including a six-lane 25-metre pool, learner pool and associated dry leisure and community facilities.

An exhibition was on display at People's Day on 12 July and the full exhibition was outside Forest Hill station on Friday and Saturday 18-19 July following the delivery of 20,000 flyers to homes in Forest Hill, Perry Vale and Sydenham wards. You can view the background papers and options online and take part in the survey at http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/foresthillpools. The exhibition was running at Forest Hill library until 8 August with residents providing feedback on the printed forms on the three options, range of facilities and other comments.

Focus groups are taking place with 'seldom heard groups' in accordance with the Council's consultation strategy, and further active consultation is taking place with local schools, businesses, and swimming clubs. Council officers have offered to meet with representatives from both the Forest Hill and Sydenham Societies in addition to their ongoing involvement with the Forest Hill Pools Stakeholder Group.

As an adjunct to the consultation programme a public meeting has been arranged for Thursday 21 August at the Forest Hill Methodist Church and Centre on Normanton Rd SE23. The meeting will run from 7pm to 9pm.

The evening will include a presentation on the background to the Mayor's decision and will give local residents the opportunity to speak to local councillors and leisure officers about the current proposals. The exhibition which details the three development options will be available, and Council staff will be present to answer queries and to gather feedback on the options that have been presented as part of the consultation.

The Stakeholder Group will be meeting at the end of August to review the feedback from the consultation. Comments from the Stakeholder Group will be included in the report to Mayor and Cabinet on 17 September which is an open meeting starting at 6.30pm at the Town Hall in Catford. The tender for the architects is running in parallel with the consultation so that work on the design can progress once the option is agreed.

We look forward to seeing you on 21 August. If you have any queries about the meeting please contact Hilary Renwick on 8314 6359 - hilary.renwick@lewisham.gov.uk or contact Cllr Chris Best or Cllr John Russell who will be co-chairing the public meeting.

Pools Consultation Begins

Lewisham Council has begun the consultation on the pools redevelopment and are presenting three options for your consideration. To take part in the consultation go to the Council website.

Please take a look at the different layouts proposed for the three options and complete the feedback form at the end. It is very important that pool users and local residents have their say in this important site in Forest Hill town centre.

The Forest Hill Society does not, at this stage, have a preferred option as the consultation should provide every individual an opportunity to express his/her own opinion. However, a few issues to consider when looking at all three options:

• How many pools do you want?
• What other leisure facilities do you want and is there enough room?
• Is the mass and height of the buildings right for the site?
• What is your opinion of the design of the building? How might it be improved?
  
• Does the proposal include the right amount of residential property?
• Is there the right amount of public space in the area?

As well as taking part in the consultation we would encourage you to express your views on se23.com.

Forest Hill Pools Exhibition and Consultation

From the Lewisham website:

On 12 July, there will be an exhibition of the design options for Forest Hill Pools on display at Peoples Day in Mountsfield Park, SE6.

On Friday 18 July 3pm – 7pm and Saturday 19 July 9am – 2pm there will be displays of the proposed options and designs for the new pool facility staffed by Architects and Council Officers who will be able to answer questions by local residents about the new development proposals. Feedback forms will also be available for residents to make comments and suggestions. The displays will be sited outside WH Smiths/Forest Hill Station on Devonshire Road/end of Dartmouth Road, SE23.

From Monday 21 July until Friday 8 August there will be an exhibition at Forest Hill Library, Dartmouth Road, SE23 3HZ (0208 699 2065). Feedback forms will be available at the exhibition.

There is also an online survey for residents and users of the pool to register their views from Monday 14 July to 8 August.

A range of other consultation will be taking place through specific focus groups throughout this period.

Historical features

A range of historical features from the façade and the building will be used within the new design to reflect the heritage of the area. An Historical Surveyor will be appointed to identify items of interest and the items will be isolated and stored for the build programme.

Demolition

Demolition of the site including Louise House, is scheduled for early Autumn.
More information is available regarding the pools consultation at www.lewisham.gov.uk/foresthillpools

11th June Pools Stakeholders Meeting

Below are notes taken by representatives from the Forest Hill Society and Sydenham Society at the recent stakeholders meeting regarding Forest Hill Pool:

Councillor Chris Best (Chair) opened the meeting addressing both Sydenham and Forest Hill Societies indicating Lewisham Council's displeasure at misinformation on both town websites and stating that Lewisham Council was committed to no decision to demolish present Victorian buildings until initial design work for a rebuild had been agreed by Mayor and Cabinet – at the end of the meeting it was agreed that the earliest likely decision would not be taken until the September Mayor and Cabinet meeting.

A representative from HLM architects was introduced and he ran through the process that HLM had used for designing a new pools/leisure centre at Forest Hill.

HLM’s intentions were to create a sense of place respecting the Library setting and the relationship any new building would have on the Library. This would be a high visibility site and sensitivity would be required. They were aware of the historic importance of the site.

The presentation of the three options began with a statement about commonality. The entrance of all options would face the Town centre, not Dartmouth Road and there would be an approach cut through the grass area in front of Salcombe House to form a green linear path. There would be a public amenity space/square in front of the entrance. The service strategy for the pools would be from Thorpewood Avenue.

Option 1

• one 25 m pool, no housing
• gym
• 2 fitness studios
• space for a cafe

Option 2

• 3000 sq m building, 2 storeys
• 25m pool plus additional training pool
• gym, 2 fitness studios, space for a cafe
• new square to station side of building (i.e. opposite side to library)
• new housing along line of Salcombe House: 25-30 units
• potential to expand parking underneath

This building would have the main entrance and foyer in the direction of the station, with a green approach and new public space. The frontage would sweep round to end in line with the library. The pools would be at the front of the building, with changing and access to dry facilities kept separate. Although two storeys, it would be low rise and not go above the lines of the existing housing behind in Derby Hill Crescent.

Option 3

• 3500-4000 sq m leisure/community/library space
• 25 m and training pools, plus maximum community space
• gym, 2 fitness studios, space for a cafe etc
• building form “respects” library
• “vibrant” public square
• feature building: "gateway" to Forest Hill
• potential for sustainable housing and/or mixed housing: 60 units
• pull-in bus parking along front on Dartmouth Road

This building would have a similar footprint to Option 2, but with several (up to 7) storeys of housing on the Dartmouth Road side over the foyer area. Also significantly increased community space over 2 storeys at the front, with the possibility of another entrance/access to the library at the corner where the two frontages meet.

Discussion:
Housing over the leisure centre foyer: 7 storeys could well be overpowering, the road is fairly narrow there so would impinge uopn the shops and residences opposite. Reply: is intended to be a bit narrow to make a “gateway”. Hilary: but if this is a gateway to Forest Hill it puts the library outside! The building seems to “turn its back” on the library. Other comment: why do we need a gateway? Architects like “iconic” buildings, and there was some discussion as to whether that was what the people of Forest Hill would want. Is 7 storyes too much? Would it make the leisure centre subservient to the residential aspects?

Use of the community space: the architects said they were deliberately being vage and nonprescrpitive about this. The space could contatin what we wanted. Pat Trembath mentioned the need for fairly large meetings rooms in FH. Chris Best agreed we need a room that would accommodate about 100. The studio space might be flexiable, and perhaps could be used for meetings too.

The development partner may want or demand parking, which is why the architects leave open the possibilty of underground parking. Hilary pointed out that this is very expensive, and would affect the finances and be likely to reduce the amount of cross subsidy money available for the leisure centre facilities.

The Tewkesbury Lodge representative said a survey of their residents emphasised the desire for leisure facilities in Forest Hill, we already have a lot of new residential buidlings. Cllr Best explained that building elsewhere in Forest Hill was by private developers, and the the Council needs receipts from building on this site to be able to afford anything more than a very basic building (i.e. Option 1).

Consultation

It was felt important that the recent history of the Pools be included in the information given including the results of the previous consultation, and the surveys. Drawings of the streetscape would need to be included to show how the facade might look, as many FH residents are unhappy about proposed changes to this. A leaflet to all residents explaining the history of the pools and the need to redevelop will be delivered to all households.

Timetable:

• July – consultation (probably exhibition in the library, public meetings)
• August – Stakeholder group meet again
• September – go to Mayor and cabinet – no demolition before this

Forest Hill Pools Update

As part of its consultation process on the development of Forest Hill Pools, Lewisham Council has set up a stakeholders group which meets regularly to represent the community and give feedback. The Forest Hill Society is one of the stakeholders, alongside the Sydenham Society, Saxon Crown swimming club, Holy Trinity School, local councillors and others. The second stakeholder meeting took place at Forest Hill School on 15^th May 2008.

Project Scope:

The Council has identified £7.5 million from its own internal budgets for the project. This does not rely on government or any other grants for building.

The project will include housing. They have asked the architects, HLM, to look at three different scenarios: high, medium and low density housing, with the intention of raising about £2 million from this. The more housing, the more facilities they would be able to include. Housing would not be built until the Pools building is finished.

What happens next:

· The nursery next door to the pools is expected to vacate the site in August

· An historical surveyor visited the pools in May. It’s expected that some historical features of the façade and building will be incorporated in the eventual design.

· The plan now is to demolish the pools in August. Apparently, it is costing £100,000 p.a. in security and power to keep the building up.

· HLM Architects have been appointed and have begun the initial design work. The basic design will include a six lane, 25 metre pool with an additional training pool. They have been asked to come up with three different designs for the development. But the only difference between each design will be the density of housing. It seems that, at this stage at least, there will be no consultation on the initial draft drawings of the leisure facilities themselves. Local people will get a chance to review these three options in June, probably in the form of an exhibition in Forest Hill Library. This will then be put before the Mayor and the cabinet in July.

· Sept-Oct 2008: get planning permission

· Nov 2008: Finalise design

· March 2009: appoint principal contractor

· July 2009: start construction

· March 2011: open building

This is later than the 2010 we were originally promised and the councillors at the stakeholders meeting were unhappy about this.

Initial Thoughts:

It will be difficult to provide parking at the pools. Underground car parking would be prohibitively expensive. Apart from disabled parking and a coach drop-off for schools, some stakeholders felt there should be no - or minimal - parking to discourage car use. Not everyone thought this feasible. Stakeholders put forward various suggestions for the development including: community room, crèche, hydrotherapy, disabled access above DDA compliance, café, exhibition area.

Date of next stakeholder meeting: 11^th June 2008

You can find out the latest developments on this website or the Lewisham Council website. Regular updates will be posted on the notice board in Forest Hill library. You can also become part of Annette Stead’s email group by emailing annette.stead@lewisham.gov.uk She is happy to receive comments and keep you updated.

Saxon Crown Swimming Club writes

Saxon Crown Swimming Club is the only competitive Swimming Club in Lewisham with around 250 swimming members. As well as offering lessons and training for swimmers from the age of 5 and a masters group for adult strong swimmers, it has a busy Disability section, swimmers from which have represented England at European level. Until its closure, Forest Hill Pools was one of the club’s main training venues. The Club is a stakeholder involved in the consultation process and has strong views about the future development of Forest Hill Pools, as the Club secretary, Sophie Wheeler, explains.

It really makes a difference to our swimmers and coaches if they are working in clean, well-designed pool facilities. External appearances are probably less important to us than internal use of space.

Saxon Crown would really benefit if there were a minimum of a training pool and a main 25-metre pool. The main pool should be at least 6 lanes wide and at least 1.2m deep in the shallow end for safe turns and dives. Our swimmers will need good quality anti-wave lane ropes, starting blocks and backstroke flags. Our priorities will also be for wide poolside walkways for both main pool and training pool as well as storage. The swimmers need ample changing facilities and their parents/supporters need somewhere to sit and watch and maybe gym or other facilities for them to use while waiting for their children to swim.

We would really appreciate special facilities for disabled swimmers, including hoists and wheelchair-friendly changing facilities. A viewing gallery with seating for over 100 people would be useful if we were to host a swimming gala.

If you are interested in finding out more about Saxon Crown Swimming Club, please go to www.saxoncrown.org.uk or come to Ladywell Pools on Monday evenings between 6.30-8.30pm (once Ladywell pool is reopened).

Latest news from Forest Hill Society

Forest Hill Day and Devonshire Road Nature Reserve Open Day - Sunday 8th June
Horniman Gardens will host the annual Forest Hill Day organised by the Forest Hill Traders Association from 12 noon to 5pm, and Devonshire Road Nature Reserve has an open day running from 12:30pm-4pm on the same day.

Forest Hill Station Barriers and Gates
According to the latest information from Southern Railway, this weekend will see the introduction of ticket barriers in Forest Hill station ticket hall. At the same time the Perry Vale gate will be closed for most of the day - possibly even when the ticket barriers are open on the other side of the station after 8pm. The Forest Hill Society oppose the closure of this important access point for people on the Perry Vale side of the station and the inconvenience that will result from the closure.

If you wish to comment on this policy of gate closure you can write to: comments@southernrailway.com
You can also speak to one of the managers from Southern Railway at London Bridge station on 19th June - 7:30am-9:30am.
Full contact details for Southern Railway can be found at http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=438


Pools to be demolished in August
At the latest meeting of the stakeholders group for the new pools we learnt that demolition of the existing pool and Louise House will begin in August this year. Completion is not due until March 2011, which is later than previously proposed. Further notes from the Forest Hill Society representative on the stakeholder group can be found at http://www.sydenhamsociety.com/ForestHillPoolsStakeholders2.html

A petition has been set up by local residents concerned about the demolition going ahead before the public have seen the designs for the new pool. You may wish to sign the petition at http://www.gopetition.com/online/19745.html


23 Club
The first meeting of the 23 Club will take place on the 23rd June at Kafe La, 15 Perry Vale. The club is open to all members, their friends and relatives and is a simple idea - to try out restaurants in and around SE23 on the 23rd of each month. This is a great way to support local restaurants and to chat to others with an interest in the local area. If you wish to book please call Kafe La directly to reserve your place 020 8699 2028. Each person is responsible for their own booking and bill.

Further meetings of the 23 club will take place on the 23rd of each month and details of the next venues will be published in the newsletter.

Presentation on the Pools from the General Meeting

This is the presentation by Steve Gough and Aileen Buckton from last nights general meeting.

General Meeting - 7th May

The Forest Hill Society will be having a General Meeting on Wednesday 7th May at 7:30pm (doors open 7pm) at Forest Hill School on Dacres Road. This will be a chance to discuss issues that you feel are important for the Forest Hill Society to address in the local area. We will have two guest speakers from Lewisham Council; Aileen Buckton, Executive Director for Community Services, and Steve Gough, Director of Programme Management and Property, who will be giving us the latest information on the rebuilding of Forest Hill Pools, one of the most important issues for the development of our town centre.

Members and non-members are welcome.

Forest Hill Pools to be Demolished

Plans to refurbish Forest Hill’s Victorian swimming pools have been scrapped. Instead, Lewisham’s Mayor now says that the existing pools and Louise House next door will be demolished and a new, two-pool facility will be built.

It’s been two years since the swimming pools were closed because of fears about the structural safety of the building. We were then told, after a consultation, that the Victorian building would be refurbished and reopened in 2009.

But it now seems that the intrusive survey, which convinced the Mayor that this option was feasible, was not intrusive enough. A detailed feasibility assessment now states that the two pool tanks have severe cracking across their entire width in three places and are leaking water at the rate of 3627m3 per annum.

Having considered various options (again), the Mayor now plans to demolish the pools and Louise House and build a modern replacement with a 25m pool and a learner pool. Other facilities will be incorporated and we expect the Council to listen to local opinions when deciding what exactly these facilities should be.

The Council has made a commitment to engage with local groups, such as the Forest Hill Society, as plans for the building proceed. It has also pledged to incorporate some of the existing architectural features from the current building such as the foundation stone. The Council says our new pool will be ready for us to dive into in the summer of 2010.

However, many people will mourn the destruction of both of Thomas Aldwinckle’s Victorian public buildings in Forest Hill.

We will press the council to seek advice from a conservation architect so that as much of the original facade as possible can be incorporated into the new building. It’s also very important that a historical report on the building be gathered before demolition so that Forest Hill Pools can be archived for the historical record.

Most importantly, we want a good quality building in this prominent site. When the Victorians built their public baths, they had a deep sense of civic pride and this was reflected in their grand designs. In the event of full or partial demolition we do not want to see a Victorian pastiche but neither do we want a modern non-descript shed. There are many examples of excellent modern civic buildings and we believe that SE23 deserves high architectural standards to compensate us for any loss of our Victorian heritage.

Whilst we regret the destruction of the Victorian baths, it’s worth remembering that in several areas they did not meet the needs of twenty-first century swimmers. Apart from general dilapidation, there is no disabled access and the changing facilities are poor and poorly located. Refurbishing the existing building would be a huge risk since it is highly likely more structural problems would emerge in coming years and we would simply be delaying the inevitable. But we would like the council to consider if it would be possible to save the facade of the existing pool building without compromising the facilities that will be available on the site.

It is obviously deeply frustrating that several years have been wasted and this two-pool, rebuild scheme was not offered as an option during the initial consultation. But the important thing now is to consult widely and ensure we get the building we want and that more people than ever – especially our local children - get the chance to enjoy swimming.

And by making our voices heard, we can make sure it’s not just a great sports facility but also a civic building that everyone can be proud of – swimmers and non-swimmers alike.

Forest Hill Pools - Who Says What

“I tried very hard to find a way to save the old pools but there is no affordable way to do it. It came as a real blow to find that the work needed to refurbish the pool was much greater than we anticipated.”
Sir Steve Bullock, Mayor of Lewisham

"It's a scandal that two years have been wasted pursuing a flawed refurbishment idea, even if it may have been the least worst of the two alternatives. These better options could have been put on the table back in 2006, and should have been - the Mayor has to answer as to why they were not!"
Cllr Alex Feakes (Lib Dem), Forest Hill Ward

"The pools, Louise House, Holy Trinity Schools and the library give a possibly unique insight into the Victorian attitude toward health, education and social welfare. I feel that every effort should be made to ensure that at least the front of the pools building, including the ticket offices, slipper baths, waiting rooms and superintendent's accommodation, should be retained."
Steve Grindlay, local historian.

“What do we know of what will replace the pools? The design should go to competition and encourage architects of great repute with design of world class quality. If the building is demolished there is no going back, an important and historic building will be lost forever.”
Jeff Lowe, founder Havelock Walk artists’ quarter.

Forest Hill Pools Timeline

1884 - Forest Hill Pools built. They are amongst the oldest public baths of the Victorian era.

2001 – a management-only contract is drawn up for the pools which means no investment in maintaining the infrastructure or upgrading facilities. Not surprisingly, the condition of the pools deteriorate.

2005 – a consultation process starts to determine the future of Forest Hill Pools. Only two options are offered - to refurbish the pools or knock them down and build a new facility with just one pool. Most people who replied choose the rebuild option.

October 2005 – consultation meetings are held. There is a very vocal minority, which strongly opposes demolishing the Victorian pools and urges refurbishment of the existing building.

March 2006 – the pools are closed when the roof is deemed unsafe.

The Mayor is persuaded by the strength of feeling at the public meeting to opt for refurbishment, pending the results of an intrusive survey.

May 2006 - English Heritage turns down an application to have the building listed.

November 2006 – the consultants who carried out the intrusive survey report that extensive repair and replacement of most of the plant and fittings would be required to bring the pools up to modern standards. However, they believe the building fabric retains its structural integrity, so refurbishment is an option.

February 2007 – The Mayor announces that he has decided to have the pools refurbished. A timetable for the work is produced with the grand opening planned for 2009.

February 2008 – further feasibility studies are carried out and the results are discussed at the Mayor and Cabinet meeting. The full extent of the pools’ structural problems becomes clear. The Mayor agrees with the recommendation to demolish the existing buildings and build a new, two-pool facility on the site of the pools and Louise House.

Another post on the Pools

We would be interested to hear what facilities you would/would not like to see on the site, particularly what would you use. We can then put these ideas to Councillor Best and the council in advance of any design for the new building.

A few ideas to get you started and for your comments:
* 2 pools (main pool and learner pool)
* machine room (gym)
* dance/yoga room
* indoor games court (football, badminton, tennis, basketball, netball)
* climbing wall
* cafe
* small meeting room
* Large meeting hall
* class rooms for adult education
* wave machine / water slides
* display on the history of pools and public baths
* opening roof to create a lido in the summer

Not all of these would be possible with a limited budget, so we would like to know which we should have. It is important to focus on what should be in the new building at least as much as how it should look.

To encourage your views we have switched on commenting on this site to allow everybody to have their say on this and other issues discussed on the site.

BBC London report on the pool demolition can be found here.